Renting in Portland 101: An Insider's Guide with Hyle Bradley

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Summary:

Join hosts Joe and Makayla as they dive into the Portland, Oregon real estate market with guest Hyle Bradley from Real Property Management Solutions. They discuss crucial aspects for renters, including timelines for securing rental properties, inventory insights, application processes, tenant protections, and more.

Episode Highlights:

Understanding the Rental Process

·        Exploring the process of finding a rental property in Portland, Oregon.

·        Insight from Hyle: Renters typically take around three weeks to secure a property.

Navigating the Portland Rental Market

·        Discussion on the current status of the Portland rental market.

·        Impact of pandemic-induced changes: increased options for renters and rising vacancies.

Insight on Rent Increases

·        Highlighting significant rental price fluctuations and market unpredictability.

·        Details on Oregon's rental cap laws, limiting rent increases annually.

Tenant Protections and Relocation Rights

·        Explanation of tenant-friendly laws in Oregon, emphasizing protections and regulations for renters.

·        Discussion on landlord qualifications for ending tenancy and tenant compensation rules.

Tips and Recommendations for Renters

·        Valuable advice for prospective renters, emphasizing research and consideration of professionally managed properties.

·        Insight into tenant preferences, such as specific property features in demand.

Hotspots in the Portland Area

·        Spotlight on high-demand rental areas: Wilsonville, Cedar Mill, and Beaverton.

For more information and resources about renting in Portland, visit LivPortland.com or reach out to Hyle Bradley directly at Hyle@realpmsolutions.com. Don't miss out on insider tips and crucial insights for navigating the rental market in Portland, Oregon!

Thank you for listening to this episode. Stay up to date on the latest trends and insights by subscribing to our podcast and following us on social media.

For more information about buying or selling in the Portland Metro real estate market, please visit www.LivPortland.com or contact us directly.

We appreciate your feedback, so please leave a review and let us know what topics you would like to hear more about.

Transcript

00:00:06:23 - 00:00:31:00

Joe

Welcome to off the record Talking real estate with Joe and Makayla. If you're interested in the Portland, Oregon real estate market and want the unvarnished inside scoop, you've come to the right place. Thanks for giving us all this. All right, everyone, Thanks for joining us on the podcast today. Hi. Hi. How are you? I'm good. Good. You want to introduce our guests today?

00:00:31:02 - 00:00:50:17

Makayla

I do. So I'm so excited to have this guest on here. We've developed a really great relationship over the past few years, and he is our trusted property manager. We get as realtors, we get tons and tons of questions about renting or someone who owns a property and wants to rent that out. And that's not our area of expertise.

00:00:50:17 - 00:01:00:08

Makayla

So we are excited to chat with our good friend Hyle Bradley today from Real Property Management Solutions. Hyle, welcome.

00:01:00:10 - 00:01:02:17

Hyle

Good afternoon to both of you. Thanks for having me.

00:01:02:21 - 00:01:04:04

Joe

Of course. How are you today?

00:01:04:09 - 00:01:09:06

Hyle

Life is so good, Joe. Life is so good. Makayla, nice to see you as well. Very excited.

00:01:09:08 - 00:01:29:04

Joe

Good, good, good, good. We're so excited to have you because property management, renting, investing, all those things, we get asked all the time. And when it comes to things like this, we want to defer to the pros. And you are one of the most knowledgeable people we've gotten to know over the years, so we really appreciate you coming on.

00:01:29:05 - 00:01:30:00

Joe

Thank you so much.

00:01:30:00 - 00:01:39:23

Hyle

My pleasure. I really look forward to being here. And I'm so happy to work with a couple of realtors like yourselves that really set the bar high for our city. So awesome. Thanks for letting me be here.

00:01:40:01 - 00:01:58:14

Makayla

Yeah, it's been a while since we've gotten face to face. I sometimes feel bad, I have to admit, because I just sometimes shoot you questions in such a frenzy or like, a text or an email. And I'm just like, Oh, I don't know. I have to contact Hyle right away, but you're always Johnny on the spot and you're always happy to share your knowledge with us.

00:01:58:14 - 00:02:02:20

Makayla

So that's much appreciated. So we're happy to keep that rolling with our audience.

00:02:02:20 - 00:02:06:11

Hyle

Well, happy to be a resource and I'm psyched to get into it today.

00:02:06:13 - 00:02:14:23

Joe

Nice. Very nice. Well, we've got some questions. I think Makayla is going to lead it off, but these are a lot of the questions that we get from clients all the time.

00:02:15:00 - 00:02:31:17

Makayla

Mm hmm. Yeah. So this episode is going to be geared towards what you should know as a renter. So just starting off pretty easy. People always ask us, especially when they're moving into Portland, how long they should give themselves to get into a rental property. So what would be your time frame recommendation there?

00:02:31:21 - 00:02:57:18

Hyle

I think it's fair to estimate three weeks to get into the property based on the average time it takes a tenant to search a couple homes, do some walkthroughs and certainly explore areas of the city that they want to live in in terms if they've settled on a place, if they knew only want to live downtown and a one bedroom apartment, I found it and they start the application process.

00:02:57:18 - 00:03:10:03

Hyle

It shouldn't take long once they've selected the home. But a big part of this is, you know, a big part of the tenant process is the selection of a home, taking a look at different amenities, etc.. But I think that three weeks should be the most.

00:03:10:05 - 00:03:19:19

Joe

Yeah. Do you ever have people come into town and they're just like, we don't know where we want to live. We don't know much about the city. Can you help us out with what you recommend that type of thing?

00:03:19:21 - 00:03:27:17

Hyle

Absolutely, Joe. And that's a great question because in a lot of other markets, brokers actually place tenants in properties.

00:03:27:18 - 00:03:28:14

Joe

Yeah, East Coast, it's.

00:03:28:14 - 00:04:09:00

Hyle

We're a little bit different. And because of some of the local legislation and the fair ordinance certainly discuss judging us as realtors and property managers from potentially steering a tenant on one property or another doesn't really exist here. And as a result, the emergence of tech based online resources has really evolved. And we think that Zillow, Hot Pads, and Trulia are largely the big three in terms of being able to search for a property in the city or in the city of Portland, in the state of Oregon, and be able to easily and readily compare them all.

00:04:09:05 - 00:04:44:19

Hyle

Certainly there are other sites and I you know, I've used even apartment lists and a couple others. But what's great about those is they so quickly allow you to compare area by area in a way that property manager or well-behaved self-managing landlord might not be able to describe with an accuracy, given some environmental factors, without potentially placing themselves in a liability position, maybe seeing something that they shouldn't or potentially steering their tenant or giving that tenant the impression that they're steering them towards a certain area of the city or a certain unit.

00:04:44:21 - 00:04:52:05

Joe

And it's hard to know in ads to isn't it? I mean, it's hard to really describe what you've got and a little tiny ad a lot of times it's true.

00:04:52:08 - 00:05:09:08

Hyle

And so I you know, because showings are such a critical part of tenant placement in Portland and in the Portland metro market, I think that that ads to that overall time and ads to the to the search process. If you're a tenant prospect tool.

00:05:09:10 - 00:05:22:02

Makayla

Just a little tangent that I came up with while you were talking there. How's inventory in general right now in this market? Is it pretty lucky with finding a home where they want to live or what does that look like right now?

00:05:22:04 - 00:05:57:05

Hyle

We've now seen in our local rental market and on the national level, Makayla in vacancy increases for 2022 straight months. So that's a month over month, you know, an increase in the vacancy rate and that's across certainly across all unit types anywhere and everywhere. But locally, what we're seeing is a concentration of options for tenants looking for a smaller property, the vacancy rate around one bedroom and studio units hasn't been this high.

00:05:57:05 - 00:06:22:18

Hyle

And in a few years more than I can remember, honestly, Multifamily Northwest, which is a great resource for realtors and property managers like just put out their fall report and they indicated average vacancy rate for those unit, the smaller unit types, your studio being around 7%. So there's a lot more options for renters than are there have been previously in our market.

00:06:22:20 - 00:06:45:00

Hyle

And, renters really have a lot of options not just in the more urban parts of the city, but in the metro, in the suburban metro as well, because I think that's the part of the market we saw. Maybe the biggest rise in vacancy is out of the city as folks really wanted to live there when they could work remotely.

00:06:45:02 - 00:07:09:03

Hyle

And there was a big household expansion at the end of the pandemic. Now that the pandemic is over, folks still can work from home. But the market in terms of the demand for those, you know, whatever unit type folks were looking for has cooled as a result, rents have slid and year over year were down quite a bit in our local Portland Metro as well.

00:07:09:03 - 00:07:32:18

Hyle

So there's more options for renters. It's a good time to look for a spot if you're a renter. Keeping in mind that since 2020, in most markets, rents have been up between 15 and 25%. So even though we've been down over the last 12 months, the overall floating of the market through the inflation that we saw has had a permanent effect.

00:07:32:20 - 00:07:43:18

Joe

So that that's another question that we get a lot is, you know, how much do rents increase on a year to year basis or over a couple of years? And it sounds like that's been significant over the past two or three right?

00:07:43:20 - 00:08:19:02

Hyle

It has, Joe. And one of the factors that really affected it was that household expansion. You know, in the United States, we saw 127 million households, a low number in the middle of 2020 when the pandemic had reached its height. And folks were very, very concerned about physical and emotional health, taking care of loved ones, etc.. And as the fears around the pandemic and the restrictions both lifted, we saw this expansion all at once that could never be matched with the inventory that we have either locally or on a national level.

00:08:19:04 - 00:08:21:16

Joe

Yeah, it was intense, wasn't it?

00:08:21:18 - 00:08:57:23

Hyle

Yeah, it really was. Yeah. In a market where we had seen maybe a five or 6% annual increase in one year in 2021, Beaverton, Oregon saw a 17% increase in rents across all unit types. I mean, that's a monumental, unheard of, unprecedented, hyperbolic change. And as a result, it's if it continued into 2022 for a while. And so the interest rate environment and overall inflation started to rear its ugly head and cool that post rental increases.

00:08:58:01 - 00:09:46:23

Hyle

And then as we've moved into 2023, we've seen the effects of that cooling in 2022 carry throughout the year. So during the pandemic we were building a lot of property. Not all of it was available to renters because of supply chain issues, lumber prices, etc. But when the certificates of occupancy all became available, you know, largely at the same time, while we were still building and issuing permits, it issued in this new era, this new environment where renters have more options and to fill, you know, these vacant units that have just become available and to meet these investor standards, concessions, lowering of rent, you know, adjustments to pricing to fill the units

00:09:46:23 - 00:09:49:17

Hyle

occurred and it affected the entire market.

00:09:49:18 - 00:09:51:10

Joe

So supply and demand.

00:09:51:14 - 00:10:15:15

Hyle

And supply and demand, Yeah, it is. And we see a lot of seasonal supply and demand. So for instance, right now we're seeing typically, you know, summer stays really hot. And as you move out of August, September is that first month where you see a small amount of rent decline in terms price, price decline. We saw that this year in August and September.

00:10:15:15 - 00:10:35:06

Hyle

And October's declines were both higher than we had seen in a couple of years, which indicates to us that it's not just folks, you know, afraid to move or find a new home to live in. It's a lack of turnover and overall churn that contributes to the natural rental market uptick.

00:10:35:08 - 00:10:40:13

Makayla

Right. So if I'm a renter, winter might be a good time to be looking for a new place.

00:10:40:13 - 00:10:54:08

Hyle

Is that it's a great if you're a renter moving in the winter in this market is it's a great time you might have a few fewer options but the power of your dollar is increased quite a bit.

00:10:54:13 - 00:10:56:03

Makayla

That's good to know.

00:10:56:05 - 00:11:18:19

Joe

That's interesting. It's a lot like you know, the residential market, we've always had strong winter sales and I think it's kind of a secret. A lot of people out there think that it's not a great time to buy because of the holidays and all that. But man, if you can find the right house, a lot of times the conditions and the pricing are better than you're going to find the rest of the year or so.

00:11:19:01 - 00:11:30:19

Makayla

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Well, moving into the application process, as a renter, what should people be prepared to share with their potential landlords when they're applying?

00:11:30:21 - 00:12:02:09

Hyle

Yeah. So I mean, certainly if you're a renter, you've got to be ready to, to present a couple items. One, you got to verify who you are. So make sure that you have it seems like a basic one, but you'd be surprised the amount of times that we don't get or we struggle as a property management company to get someone to give a driver's license or a photo I.D. verification that they are who they are, they're certainly going to be asked to submit some credit history.

00:12:02:11 - 00:12:42:15

Hyle

Now, credit score may not always be a determining factor. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't. But having debt in collections is almost always going to be something that could prevent a renter from being offered a property. So I would prepare my if I was a potential renter that maybe had some adverse credit activity, I would take the time to rectify that, maybe before I applied, I would certainly plan on having $50 to apply to any property that I was potentially interested in renting, and then I'd be prepared to have some rental history references and verification of income.

00:12:42:17 - 00:13:01:01

Hyle

So, you know something? I have a job or payslip or, you know, could indicate bank statement if the income comes from a trust fund, whatever it is. Those are three of the big ones. Of course, most of the rental, you know, if you were going to go through a property management company, criminal background, it's very likely to be checked.

00:13:01:06 - 00:13:23:08

Hyle

Most self-managing landlords are going to check this as well. But I have noticed of late anecdotal, really a few landlords that have just I look at the application, I screen it for credit and when you go for the best I tend to recommend against that. The city and state both have clear definitions about what you're allowed to and are not allowed to advertise for.

00:13:23:10 - 00:13:43:17

Hyle

And I encourage anyone to go to either PortlandHousing/phb.gov or simply look up Oregon's Chapter 90 statutes. They'll dig deeper into that. But you, as a renter, prove who you are, prove you can pay for the property, prove that you don't have adverse criminal history, prove it, you have rental history. Thus, the guidance.

00:13:43:19 - 00:13:48:20

Makayla

Seems very straightforward and all four things I need to, right? Yeah. Yeah.

00:13:48:22 - 00:13:56:03

Joe

I think people if the shoe were on the other foot and you on the property and you were renting it to someone, you would probably want those things to be checked out.

00:13:56:03 - 00:14:04:05

Makayla

Yeah, I think so. Right. Interesting. Okay. Are there any protections I have as a renter in this local marketplace?

00:14:04:06 - 00:14:34:09

Hyle

You absolutely do. Chapter 90 in Oregon Statutes addresses directly the role of the landlord. It talks a lot about the laws governing the landlord and tenant relationship. And locally and in the city of Portland, there's an entire website that I just might have mentioned called the Portland Housing Bureau is a great resource for any renter who is just looking with questions about their current situation.

00:14:34:14 - 00:14:56:23

Hyle

Is this right? Is this not right? And it's a really valuable resource overall. This is one of the more tenant friendly states in terms of tenant protections. It's and I think in a in a really good way to start, there's a rent cap here. We're the only state in the United States. The state government has come across and said, here's the most you can raise the rent in a year.

00:14:57:01 - 00:15:25:06

Hyle

And we're going to tell you what that is. Every year, you know, our legislators just passed a law in the spring, in fact, to address the massive inflation that allowed this. You know, the state had previously said 7% plus the consumer price index will be the rental cap. Well, when it came out in 2022 that the rental cap in 2023 was 14.6%, it raised a lot of eyebrows and certainly made a lot of tenants feel, you know, a high level of anxiety.

00:15:25:12 - 00:15:49:04

Hyle

You know, am I? It's my rent going to go up 14.6% because I haven't I haven't seen a 14% raise in my right, my job or my grant from school, whatever it might be. So, Joe, I mean, Makayla, to get back to it, the renters are protected because the landlords can only raise the rent once a year and it can't be more than that 10% the state pass.

00:15:49:04 - 00:16:06:02

Hyle

A law went into effect July 1st, signed by Governor Kotek. It's whatever, less than 7% plus CPI, Consumer Price Index or 10%. So right there we're in a state where that's that tenant friendly in a way that no other state is.

00:16:06:02 - 00:16:13:07

Joe

And you're saying that no other state in the in the United States has that type of cap. Is that correct?

00:16:13:09 - 00:16:57:23

Hyle

At this point? That's correct. That's right. Chapter 90 and the Bill 608, which which passed in 2019 was the first of its type. Now I am aware that there are several other states that are looking at a form of this. But what makes ours different is not just the rental cap itself. We also talk about that Chapter 90 in the way that it was changed also talks about how you can end a tenancy so if you're a renter and you lived in the home for longer than a year, 365 days, a landlord can't come to you and simply end your tenancy for no cost without what's called a landlord qualifying reason.

00:16:58:01 - 00:17:22:06

Hyle

And this is way different than, again, a lot of other states tenancy as it's defined, is slightly different here because of the way that the state says you can end the tenancy. And I'll give a little example here if I was living back in Boston where I lived for many years and I was under a fixed term agreement, Joe and you were my landlord at the end of that fixed term agreement.

00:17:22:06 - 00:17:36:07

Hyle

If I had not asked you for another agreement and you had not offered me one to sign, the expectation is at the end of that fixed term agreement, I'm simply moving out because I wouldn't be a tenant in good standing any longer covered by the lease.

00:17:36:07 - 00:17:37:12

Joe

Sure, no contract.

00:17:37:12 - 00:17:59:04

Hyle

In Oregon because the state says you can and cannot and the tenancy. If at the end of my one year occupancy as Joe's tenant, he says, I'm not going to offer you another fixed term agreement, but I continue to pay the rent. I become a month the month that my tenancy doesn't end and I continue to live in that property.

00:17:59:06 - 00:18:28:04

Hyle

Now Joe has options. He can choose to raise my rent after that first fixed term agreement, as is his right under Chapter 90. However, he can't decide that he wants to sell the property and for no cause. Give me a 30 day notice. And that's another big protection. Tenant's getting 90 and the ending of tenancy for the most part, unless it's a you know, you live with your landlord is, you know, if your landlord's upstairs from you or it's an owner occupied property, the laws change a little bit.

00:18:28:07 - 00:18:32:10

Hyle

For the most part it's a 90 day notice to end their tenancy.

00:18:32:12 - 00:18:40:06

Joe

Hmm. Wow. And there are rules in place as far as compensation. Is that correct?

00:18:40:08 - 00:19:04:16

Hyle

Joe. So glad you brought that up. If you're in the state of Oregon, if you own four properties of any type you for ownership stake and for properties can be a piece of land, vacation home, your own home, your second home, for instance, you're required to pay the tenant one month's rent when you end their tenancy for no cause.

00:19:04:19 - 00:19:15:11

Hyle

Now this doesn't cover, so won't help a tenant who is being asked to vacate a home because he hasn't paid rent or he or she. They or them have not.

00:19:15:13 - 00:19:17:02

Joe

So in good standing.

00:19:17:02 - 00:19:56:22

Hyle

That's in good standing exactly as long as the tenants in good standing. Ending the tenancy without cause will cost you one month's rent if you fall under those perimeters inside the city of Portland any time you are, and then the tenancy for no cause and you don't have an exemption for this relocation payment regardless of the number of properties you own, regardless of what you plan to do with that property, you apart from delivery of that 90 day notice within 45 days, will be required to deliver a check for a relocation payment based on the number of bedrooms.

00:19:57:00 - 00:20:22:15

Hyle

And this again is all available on Portland Housing Bureau's website. But for instance, I believe that a three bedroom is a $4,500 check. So if you are a renter and you're in good standing and you potentially have your tenancy ended because the landlord's going to move back into the property, that's a landlord off reason. For instance, you're not going to walk away without anything.

00:20:22:15 - 00:20:29:05

Hyle

And while you have 90 days, you're also going to get a small check to help cushion the blow of the next move.

00:20:29:07 - 00:20:34:19

Joe

Got it. And what about if it's inside that 12 month period? Is that still apply?

00:20:34:22 - 00:21:02:01

Hyle

It's a great question. Inside of 12 months, you do tend to get more freedom under Chapter 90 to end the tenancy. You know, you don't have to have one of the landlord qualifying reasons if you choose to end the tenancy within 12 months, but you still fall under all the relocation statutes. So inside the city of Portland, outside the city of Portland, just pay attention to that because you would still the compensation would still be available to the tenant.

00:21:02:03 - 00:21:18:20

Joe

I think we should put a link to be our Livportland blog site. I think people would really appreciate seeing that it's such a great resource and has so much great information on all the things that we're talking about. But it goes into real detail that I think people really need to understand and know about. Don't you think?

00:21:18:22 - 00:21:21:21

Hyle

I agree. I think it's a great resource. Yeah.

00:21:21:23 - 00:21:29:16

Makayla

Well, yeah, just wrapping up, I was anxious to hear if you had any general advice for someone going out to rent.

00:21:29:18 - 00:21:56:09

Hyle

Dig in, do a lot of research. And certainly I encourage, you know, I'm slightly biased given the nature of the industry that I work in and the company I work for. But I find that properties that are professionally managed, whether that's a self-managing landlord who does a professional job or professional property management services, go a long way to overall living satisfaction.

00:21:56:11 - 00:22:20:11

Hyle

I've been a renter here in the city of Portland and I've had mixed experiences depending on who my property manager and landlord are and where. And as a result, if I was a renter again, I would be a bit pickier about that. Certainly, don't be afraid to be ready to jump on a property. You know the market if you find something that you feel like is really going to suit your needs.

00:22:20:15 - 00:22:30:06

Hyle

It's not like a home purchasing industry locally. It's a much faster decision time that the tenants tend to have. So you really want to be prepared to act quickly.

00:22:30:11 - 00:22:35:21

Joe

Sure. 7% kind of surprised me a little bit higher that that seems really high.

00:22:35:21 - 00:22:43:14

Hyle

They can see that is just for studios, And I agree that's real high. Yeah. I mean, that's that's a real high.

00:22:43:19 - 00:22:48:06

Joe

That's a great opportunity for a lot of people that probably have been thinking, you know, there's nothing to rent.

00:22:48:07 - 00:23:17:21

Hyle

Exactly. And there's it's a great opportunity also for folks. Tells you a lot about what tenant preferences are in our market locally that folks really want to work from home or at least have a space to work from home or have a space at home to either separate professional and personal lives because we're seeing a lot more push towards that three bedroom, two bedroom, two bath versus two bedroom, one bath, especially if someone's working from home, maybe having access to a dedicated bathroom.

00:23:17:21 - 00:23:42:11

Hyle

We're seeing demand around that increase while demand for one bedroom and studios just continues to slow down. It's slowed down throughout the year. Now, we did see just a little bit higher vacancy rate in the spring, but I think that part of that is influenced by coming out of that winter, you know, that slower period, the data that the data sets you're going to get are will be a little bit different.

00:23:42:11 - 00:23:47:06

Joe

But what's the hottest spot right now? Where do people want to rent? Where were you seeing the most activity?

00:23:47:08 - 00:24:27:11

Hyle

I can't please tenants fast enough right now in the Wilsonville area. So having a I'm having a lot of of good luck you know Cedar mill that's sort of the edge of northwest Portland Beaverton I think it's a little quiet up there. I've we've seen a real short time of tenancy. But if you're curious about that, I encourage folks also to to join multifamily northwest as they if you're a member you have access to really valuable report comes out twice a year but it's a deep deep deep data set so.

00:24:27:12 - 00:24:28:14

Joe

Nice very nice.

00:24:28:19 - 00:24:37:13

Makayla

Great. Well, we will definitely have all of your information on our website. But other than that is where's a good place for people to reach you directly if they just have any questions or.

00:24:37:14 - 00:24:55:10

Hyle

Oh, I appreciate that so much. You can certainly reach us. You can contact us right through our website at www.realpmsolutions.com or you can just email me. It's really easy. Hyle@realpmsolutions.com

00:24:55:12 - 00:24:58:09

Makayla

Okay. Well thank you so much for your time.

00:24:58:11 - 00:25:03:13

Joe

This is so much great information. I know, right? This is this is great stuff.

00:25:03:15 - 00:25:07:07

Hyle

Thank you. Too kind. You too. I mean, you're awesome.

00:25:07:09 - 00:25:25:22

Joe

You're awesome. All right, everyone, thank you so much for joining us. Visit Livportland.com or go to Hyle's site as well and grab information if you need it. And you can always reach out to hire or us and we'll get you in connection with him and I know he'll be happy to help out. Hyle thank you so much.

00:25:25:22 - 00:25:27:20

Joe

Really appreciate the time.

00:25:27:22 - 00:25:30:18

Hyle

Makayla Joe, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

00:25:30:23 - 00:25:31:10

Joe

You bet.

00:25:31:10 - 00:25:31:23

Makayla

By now.

00:25:32:00 - 00:25:32:13

Joe

I'll.

00:25:32:17 - 00:25:33:17

Hyle

Take care.

00:25:33:19 - 00:25:46:17

Makayla

Thanks for joining us today. If you're interested in finding out more about Jo, myself or the Livportland team, you can go to Livportland.com. Thanks for giving us the listen and see you next time on the Off the Record podcast.